Vampiric Regeneration (716)


Initial Post by Kithus

Options by Eredhen

Level Concerns by Justairious

Comments by Uliq

Questions from Kithus

Suggestions by Dema

Solli's Opinion

Kithus' Purpose

Hadiar's Fears

Eredhen's Answer to Uliq & Other Thoughts

Sothog's Suggestion


Original Idea, Posted by Kithus on February 2, 2003

I had a thought and decided I'd share it here. First off this would require moving disease to another spell slot or removing it entirely, quite honestly oh well, the spell isn't very useful. That said moving on:

Vampiric Aura

By the use of this spell the sorcerer summons dark spirits and directs them at a single target. These spirits can be seen as an eerie glow surrounding the target. The spirits feed off the creatures life force (animus not mana) but some is returned to the sorcerer, restoring lost blood and healing physical injuries. A powerful hit from this spell has been known to even help the sorcerer regenerate missing limbs and heal even the most greivous scars.

I picture this spell almost as a mix of dark catalyst and torment. The dark spirits would lash out causing damage in the same way as dark catalyst, several smaller hits as opposed to one large attack. The damage would be lower as the spell is lower rank. However it would work on non-magical creatures though it would not work on any form of undead. Pretty much if it can't be sacrificed, it can't be Auraed.

prep 716
Blah

Cast at kobold

You gesture at a super kobold.
  CS: +xxx - TD: +xx + CvA: +25 + d100: +68 == +302
  Warding failed!
An eerie crimson aura engulfs the super kobold.
A super kobold screams in horror as gashes form on it's abdomen, spurting blood.
   ... 20 points of damage!
   Left eye ruptures, spraying gore.
   ... 30 points of damage!
   A loud *crack* can be heard just as just as half of the kobolds femur punctures the skin.
The super kobold falls to the ground motionless.
The aura suddenly shifts returning to you.
(Then one of these)
You feel much healthier. X health recovered.
With a sickening crunch your the bones in your left arm set themselves.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Others would see:

The strange aura drifts away from the super kobold, flowing into Kithus.

Kithus suddenly looks much healthier.
There is a sickening crunch as Kithus watches the bones in his left arm mend themselves!

I also had another thought that would slow this spell down somewhat but still be interesting. That being intervals of hits at the rate of a maelstrom and possibly level/skill based instead of CS based... something to this affect:

An eerie red glow errupts from the super kobolds stomach.
A super kobold screams in horror as gashes form on it's abdomen, spurting blood.
   ... 20 points of damage!

Part of the aura flows into Kithus.
Kithus suddenly looks much healthier.

The menacing aura errupts from the kobolds eye, spraying gore.

Kithus watches the aura flow over the his left leg.
With a sickending *crunch* the bones in the leg set.

Thoughts? Additions? Questions? Let's have it.

Kithus Norrak and his dragon


Posted by Eredhen, February 3, 2003

The spirits surround the sorcerer instead of the creature and lashes out at the creature.

 As an option to the original design:

 At cast a target type is specified (cast kobold), although the spell can still be directed at a specific creature (cast at kobold / cast at third kobold).

 With the first method, the spell will then lash out at only creatures of that target type, draining them and causing damage on a successful attack. Part of what is drained is returned to the sorcerer, without the spirit having to return to the sorcerer. It could be duration based or total amount healed based (the spirits leave when they are sated. The number of spirits or the amount needed to sate it/them depends on factors x,y, etc.)

 The second method functions by just targeting that one creature.

 Also, by using a single cast, the spirits/aura will surround the caster and lash out at unfriendlies, the number of which is determined by factors x,y, etc. It will then leave. (Mass attack type spell)

 The spirits will restore lost blood and heal wounds. They will not drain/restore spirit.

 This spell continues to function while stunned/paralyzed, etc.

 Eredhen


Posted by Justairious, February 3, 2003

I would like to see it heal physically only, and though I believe it would hurt its power, I think a neccessary thing might be a level comparison for the healing. I don't think we should be able to heal a third level scar off of a kobold. It should have to be like leveled (perhaps within 5-10 levels of us, or within 10-20% of our levels) for full effectiveness, causing a level 100 sorcerer to have to find something in its 90s to heal off of and not be able to heal more than blood off a rolton.

The other design idea I had for it was that it only works on certain living creatures, to prevent us regenerating a leg from a cast at a snake like creature. Of course if we had tails and a wounded tail or even wings, we could be in trouble. :)

Unfortunately a side effect of the above design choices would likely be more time to code.

Justairious


Posted by Uliq, February 4, 2003

>Vampiric Aura

I sort of skimmed through the folder in Sorcerers, but I definitely didn't catch the healing of physical wounds part.

First, let me say I'm not totally against the idea. However, I am against the idea of it healing physical body wounds as the spell is currently presented. The lifeleech spells found in other games restore health points. Because there is no difference between HP and actual wounds, it seems like it heals physical conditions. I do not believe those spells would restore body parts if those games made such a disctinction between wounds like we do in GemStone III.

If the spell had the following limitations I would be inclined to support it:

To restore just HP:

Creature must be living. Creature must be coreporeal.

To restore HP and cure minor physical wounds:

Creature must be living. Creature must be coreporeal. Creature most be humanoid.

To restore HP and cure more than minor wounds:

See the above three conditions and incorporate a wait time between healing major wounds similar to 308 wait time.

It definitely could NOT work on undead because they don't have any viable lifeforce to drain.

-uliq

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>I am going to ask, Uliq, what about it leaving scars when it heals (which it should, in my opinion, as even the empath wound healing spells themselves leave scars)?

I'm totally against the idea of the spell healing scars under any condition.

-uliq


Posted by Kithus, February 4, 2003

Since the healing aspect is what everyone is primarily focused on I want people (especially sorcerers because if this were implemented it would be your spell and your opinions are vastly more important in this matter) to think about a couple things. This is only a loose idea and I haven't answered some questiosn with my design as I wanted them to be discussed and balanced:

1. How many wounds at a time will this spell healing and how much will it heal? Will it heal the most severe wound/scar by 1 rank or heal several wounds by 1 rank or will it heal a single wound completely or a single scar completely?

2. Which format of the spells attack would be preferable? I listed a maelstrom like delayed several hits effect or a direct burst effect. This would affect the healing as the burst could potentially only heal once per cast while the maelstrom like affect would be healing something every "pulse."

3. Should this spell be castable wounded?

4. Should there be a level vs. level check for healing? I am against this as the main utility portion of this spell, to me, lies in healing down between hunts off a creature that isn't likely to injure you again.

5. Add your own thoughts or concerns anything you think is unclear. Let's discuss, refine and work this into something great.

Kithus Norrak and his dragon


Posted by Dema, February 4, 2003

>>4. Should there be a level vs. level check for healing? I am against this as the main utility portion of this spell, to me, lies in healing down between hunts off a creature that isn't likely to injure you again.--Kithus<<

I believe there should be, but it shouldn't be to the point where it's totally ineffective on creatures less than ten trains below you.

I think of the point of a Bonespear hunter. Assuming this spell wouldn't be useful on undead (maybe this assumption is wrong -- assumptions often seem to be) most Bonespear hunters would have to skip town to use the spell.

That isn't to say there shouldn't be a level check, though. I just think there should be diminished returns from creatures much younger than you. I mean we wouldn't be getting experience at that point anyhow.

We shouldn't be able to at level 20 go take advantage of rats. I was thinking returns for health could be something like:

( 25% of critter hp)/|((creaturelvl)-(yourlvl))|

 So a say a rat has 20 health, and I'm 20 trains, the rat is 1 it would look like this 5/|1-20| which is 5/19 which returns nothing. Now, if it were a war troll, with say 200 health, and at lvl 10 it would look like this. 50/|10-20| which is 50/10 so 5 health....

Well, that seems a bit drastic for usefulness, however, with training in say first aid you may be able to harness up to 50 percent of critter health before the lvl modifications. and if your casting at critters like lvl or older, that formula obviously wouldn't work, but Im not thinking that far in advance at the moment. And this also only takes blood into account...not wounds.

>>3. Should this spell be castable wounded?--Kithus<<

No, if we cant cast, we cant cast...

>>2. Which format of the spells attack would be preferable? I listed a maelstrom like delayed several hits effect or a direct burst effect. This would affect the healing as the burst could potentially only heal once per cast while the maelstrom like affect would be healing something every "pulse."--Kithus<<

I like the maelstrom "pulse" effect, however I imagine that would be too overpowered.

 I would think based on warding that if you have multiple rank 1 wounds, you could potentially heal multiple wounds. I imagine on a end roll of 200+ say as a 50ish train warrior picking on shan, I could conceivable have a total rank reduction of 5, which could randomly heal 5 ranks of wounds, so a rank 2 on the chest, a rank 1 on the leg, arm and neck. There should be a fair amounnt of roundtime for this, similar to Sacrifice.

Some things that I think would be interesting would be:

1. if it has a neck bleeder (ala 701) we could harness a greater amount of HP, but not be able to heal neck wounds.

2. Have modifications based on appropriate training (Sorcerer spells, first aid, perception?).

3. I see balance issues, but I think with appropriate modifications it can still be a great spell with out being entirely neutered if we hammer out a lot of the issues now.

Just my thoughts,
-Dema


Posted by Solli, February 4, 2003

>1. At level, I'd want it healing only the most severe wound. The more below level, the more I'd like it to heal multiple wounds.

Personally (and I'm not on either pures team, so I don't really have any more input than any of you!) I'd lean towards having it the opposite - if you can do it successfully against critters above you level, you would have greater effect. Critters significantly below your level wouldn't have enough life force to help you.

GM Solli
Squares / Semis / Breakage


Posted by Kithus, February 4, 2003

It's a bit annoying to me that people are so completely stuck on the healing aspects of the spell that they aren't looking at the attack aspect of it. While in my mind it would cure one wound by a rank and/or restore some blood loss that is the secondary effect. The most costly healing spell is 1105 so either way this spell is at most 5 mana into the healing side and 11 mana into the attack side. It would work against anything that is sacrificeable, so no undead or constructs (Undead are mostly magical and constructs really should be).

My main focus for this spell was an attack spell of mid to high range to use against non-magical creatures since we can no longer use DC for them. THis is the spell you cast at roa'ters or TKs or other non-magical creatures you don't want to MD to death. It should have crits and damage just a bit lower than DC. At the same time it will have some utility. Once again, in my mind, any sorcerer utility spell should have some sort of attack capability anyways.

Kithus Norrak and his dragon


Posted by Hadiar, February 4, 2003

I fully realize that the idea is also an attack spell, but again, that's pretty much a side-effect to the healing aspect of the spell. If all we needed was an attack spell, I'm sure the GM's could whip something up right quick that would fit in the 16th spell slot, whether it be called "Evil Smelly Foot" or "Plummeting Anvil of Doom." The only thing that makes this idea stand out is its healing aspect, which is what everyone is focusing on.

You also must keep in mind that this spell would be completely and totally ineffective against any and all undead (and probably constructs,) and would heal no wounds unless the creature was a humanoid. That rules out about 1/4 to 1/3 of all creatures in the game. If we do get an attack spell (which I don't think we need,) I'd hate for it to be so limited in its usefulness.

My biggest fear of this spell, however, is that the GM's will like the idea, run with it, but decide that having it heal wounds would be too powerful, and that it should only return HP instead. If that we to occur, it would be absolutely and utterly useless. Why spend 16 mana to hopefully ward a creature that will hopefully restore all my HP's when I can simply use Symbol of Restoration a couple of times, or take a step north or west and take a few bites of acantha?

Please remember, though, I am NOT knocking your idea. I think it's excellent. I just don't think it will be terribly effective if it became a reality.


Posted by Eredhen, February 4, 2003

 First, I was under the impression that this spell was primarily a hunting spell that was somewhat opposite to DC - the primary target is non-magical beings.

 On casts where the target falls into certain categories, especially if Uliq has his way, we would receive the added benefit of having some of the life force of the target returned to us to heal us in some way.

 Uliq posted some of his ideas about limitation:
--------------------------------

To restore just HP:

Creature must be living. Creature must be corporeal.

To restore HP and cure minor physical wounds:

Creature must be living. Creature must be corporeal. Creature most be humanoid.

To restore HP and cure more than minor wounds:

See the above three conditions and incorporate a wait time between healing major wounds similar to 308 wait time.

It definitely could NOT work on undead because they don't have any viable lifeforce to drain.

---------------------------------

 Uliq, I understand your viewpoint. However, I believe that the important factor was life-force, not the shape of the target. Any living, corporeal form has life-force. The returned life-force itself would power the healing, so no similarity in body shape should be necessary.

 I will agree that the target must be corporeal, that there should be a wait time for major wounds (not some arbitrary time, but self-limiting as described below), and that undead will not return any healing energy.

 As for healing: Assign each level of wound a value. Each successful strike contributes to an overall pool that the healing draws from. For example, a second level wound would not heal until the pool were large enough to allow for it. It would then be a first level wound, which would not be healed until the gathered energy allowed for it. Scars should be healed in the same manner.

 This is not the same as receiving healing from an empath because of possible limitations:

 First, the spell targets the most serious wound. As greater amounts of life energy are required to heal the more serious wounds it could be some time (multiple casts if there is more than minor HP loss or a minor wound) before the sorcerer is healed. As the main aspect of this spell is for offensive purposes, the amount of life-energy returned per cast will probably be limited.

 Second, sorcerers will not be able to sit in one place and heal themselves. They must hunt for something to target with the spell.

 Third, as I don't expect huge returns of life energy on each cast, the mana and time expended to heal onself will be much more overall than the same mana/time expenditure an empath would undergo - especially if we are just healing a minor wound.

 Fourth, as we will not be able to cast at all with certain types of wounds/scars, we will be unable to heal ourselves with this spell if we receive those wounds/scars. We would still need to seek out an emapth or use herbs.

 Fifth, as greater wounds would require greater amounts of life energy, there are self-limiting factors. We may run out of mana before we are healed or healed enough that we won't need to seek out an empath or use herbs, especially if we've been hunting and are already low on mana.

 The most useful aspect of the healing portion of this spell will be if we have a bleeding wound and aren't yet dead. We can use it to lessen the bleeding and hopefully live to leave.

 The more training one has in First Aid, the more efficient one will be in the application of the life energy.

 Another problem comes in determining how the amount of life-force drawn from each target will be computed. Should an older sorcerer be able to draw life energy from a rat? Yes, because it has a life-force.

 This could be a problem, but if the amount of life force drawn from something was based on the amount of damage caused, not to exceed the full (healthy) HP total of the target, then that would act as a limiting factor. As an example (and example only) the life energy return from a kobold might only be 1/3 a point in the overall pool, where it takes 60 points to heal a level 3 wound down completely (5 for a level one wound/scar, 10 for a level 2, 15 for a level 3). It would take quite a few kobolds (180) to heal down from a level 3 wound to having no scar.

 Just some thoughts...

 Eredhen

Posted by Sothog, February 4, 2003

In regard to this spell, I would suggest the following:

The usual prep/cast at target.

If caster overcomes the warding ("A cloud of swirling etheral mist is drawn out of the creature and settles around you!"), the damage does not IMMEDIATELY heal the sorcerer, but mechanically speaking goes into a 'regen pool'. For example if I did 23 concussion damage and a rank 1 wound to the creature, I get credit for 23 concussion damage and 1 rank of wounds in my regen pool. Assuming I am wounded, I begin to draw from my regen pool at a rate of, say, 10% of the current concussion points per minute, and one wound level to a random location every two minutes (scarring still occurs, but at least you don't have to carry nearly as many herbal concoctions to fix yourself up). So, if a sorc wants to heal himself up in short order (esp. in the concussion hits dept.) he's going to have to kill a lot of rats in order to get a decent concussion return rate- or kill something closer to his level where the concussion hit return will be worth the mana expenditure). If the sorcerer still has concussion hits/wounds in the regen pool and has not taken any wounds, the 'stored' wounds dissipate at the same rate. (I envision it might be possible in an alternate version/proposal of this spell for the sorcerer to be able to 'hold' these unused hits/wounds for 30 sec./lvl, after which they begin to dissipate from the regen pool at the stated rate.)

This would allow us to repair ourselves in the field with minimal use of herbs, while not being terribly overpowering. It also may force some tactical choices (do I take an herb now to bring that rank 2 wound down to a rank 1, or do I wait for my regen to kick in, or do I retreat and regenerate...?). The rate of draw from the 'regen pool' may have to be adjusted, however, before this idea will work well from both a practicality standpoint (for Sorcerers) and from a balance standpoint. Perhaps a lvl. vs. lvl. comparison would come into the absorption phase for the purposes of absorbing wounds (a rank 1 wound on a rat's paw won't mean diddly to a human 10x the rat's size).

Thoughts, adjustments, etc.?

Sothog's player